180: Big Brand Promotion: The Inside Track on a Specialized Tool

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Contact info:

Roger Nairn

Email: roger@jaraudio.com

Website: http://www.jaraudio.com

Phone: (604) 362-5319

Twitter: jar_roger

Instagram: rogernairn

LinkedIn Page:https://www.linkedin.com/in/rogernairn604/

Bio:

Roger is a lateral thinker, problem solver, strategist and finder of new ways. He believes in the power of the happy customer and spent years managing client relationships and building brands for world-famous agencies like DDB and Cossette. Throughout his career, he’s found himself working with a number of industry giants, including (but certainly not limited to) Netflix, Expedia, Walmart, Nordstrom, Lamborghini, Cineplex, Four Seasons Plus and Vancouver’s own lululemon. On top of all of this, he followed his passions to become a Board Member for TEDx Vancouver and has recently become an expert-level toddler wrangler through the magic of parenthood. When he’s not at work, he likes to golf, read and—no surprises here—binge the occasional podcast.

This is profit from the inside, with Joel Block insights to give your business the inside track. And now here's your host, Joel Block. Are you renting your audience or do you own them? If you're tired of paying Google for advertising expense and would rather create an investment the last for years, this episode will offer you a new way of thinking about a medium that you already know and love to explain. Roger and NAAR and Roger, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having Joel. So this is this is really cool, because what we're talking about is saying that I totally believe in this and you've just got a little different twist than than I've thought about before and I just love it. So I want you to share. Um. What does what does your agency do? Yeah, so jar audio is a podcast product and agency. We we make podcasts, only we make them exclusively with brands. We get hired by some of the world's largest brands, midsized brands to come in and create a podcast for them. So a lot of brands are used to advertising these days on podcasts. This is different. This is actually owning the entire show themselves and producing an incredible piece of content for their audience. So we come in and work on everything from who the audience is, what the strategy is going to be for the show. We developed the concept for what the show is going to be. We then get to work finding the right host, finding the guests, doing all the guests chasing and the you know, the legal side of things, and then and then the full production, so recording, editing, music, sound effects, you know, all the fun stuff that goes into a great sounding podcast. All the distribution, making sure that it gets out to all the different podcasts channels, apple podcasts, spotify, Google, Amazon, you know, there's a whole bunch of these days. And then one of the most important thing is is mark getting the show, making sure that it gets to the right listeners,...

...into the right ears and it grows. Uh, it's it's it's only a successful podcast if it's in the right years and is, you know, growing. You know, one of the things that this resonates for me for a lot of reasons. One is our show has been going for a lot of years and I love the show and it's it's awesome and I totally believe in this. But what to me, is really unique about your deal, Um, is I've suggested to many companies to start a podcast show and one of the things, well, how do we get listeners? And the irony is, if you're a brand and you already have a customer base, uh, you know, and and and there are many different facets to that. Uh, then you automatically are going to have an easy time building an audience. So why don't you tell us about some of the ways you've seen companies build their build their audience, their listener base? Uh, you know, what are what are companies doing? Because that's that's really the one of the there's two parts that are hard about this. That's one of the two. Yeah, for sure. You know, when we think about brands versus the everyday sort of amateur podcaster, brands have an advantage because, to your point, they already come with an, you know, with an existing audience. Now, not all, not all brands want to create the podcast for their existing audience. Perhaps it's meant to be used to attract a new audience, but let's pretend that it's, you know, it's for their existing clientele. Is for the existing audience? Well, you know, depending on the brand, depending on the category, who you are, what you do, you're gonna have, you know, a huge email list, you're gonna have a social following, you're gonna have your staff, you're gonna have your existing clients and their networks. So, from a strategic standpoint, we like to leverage all of that before we get into some of the more organic ways of lifting the podcast. So, you know, if you're a bank, you've got a massive list of clientele that you're emailing on a consistent basis. They've given you permission to email them. They want tips and tricks and and added value as a bank, especially as a they don't want they don't want you to just...

...hold their money. They want more from you. Um, you know, if you'RE A nonprofit organization, you've got a really great list of volunteers that are clamoring to help out and be connected to the organization. If you're a retail location, you've probably got a lot of, you know, evangelist fans that are, you know, in love with the brand and want to find ways to connect more with the brands. So, you know, again it really depends on who you're speaking with. But what we do is we really do a good audit of what's available, what exists and how can we leverage it? One of the things really important to point out, just to make sure everybody understands, is if you're a brand, the show is not about your brand. The show is about whatever the people who love your brand also love, and it's it's sort of a way of engaging them, and then the brand is kind of the umbrella that sits above that. So you nailed it, because who? Because who wants to listen to a thirty minute ad? Right? Nobody does. Totally. Yeah, so what we always talk about is creating a great podcast that happens to be brought to you by a brand. So what we think about is, what are some of the tangential sort of topics or ideas or stories that a brand could tell? That seems like a nice natural brand fit, and then let's tell that to the audience and let's make a show that anybody's gonna want to listen to. It just happens to be brought to you by brand. And this is classic branded content. It's it's, you know, high value content that is coming from the source, you know. So, for example, one of the shows we've produced in the past is called out travel the system. It's a podcast made by expedia. Now you can are you can't tell me that there's no better brand in the world when it comes to understanding the travel space. I mean they've got incredible people working there. Plus they've got all this data, all this experience. Now, what we did was create a show called out travel, the system that helps listeners hack the online travel space that, you know, get the get the most out of their travel experience. So we would tell we would have people on the show from Disneyland telling everybody how to,...

...you know, get a great Disney experience for under two thousand dollars. Or we had a couple who rode their van all around the United States, visiting all the national parks. You know, they told their experience. We told you know, we had some incredible storytelling. We've we've been there. Now it just happened to be brought to you by expedient, because that's a nice that's a nice, Nice brand fit Um. We've also done work with the World Bank of Canada, you know, one of the world's largest banks, uh or. Or we've done work with American Express, one of the world's largest, you know, financial institutions. They know a ton about business, they know a ton about the economy. So our shows are based on sort of the you know, what's coming next in the economy, but also, you know, how are we going to rethink the world coming out of Covid on the American Express side, we we talk a lot about small business and what it means to be a small business owner and and and just offered them a ton of value in that respect. And it just happens to be brought to you by the brand. So instead of them owning their own show, why wouldn't those companies just seek somebody out that's already doing a great travel show and just become a sponsor and kind of kind of partnering with them with like that must be what they think about as the alternative. Yeah, and actually that that generally is is a is a good first step. Um. So you know, we're we're definitely proponents of that. But what eventually happens is they feel like they want to, you know, have us say, in the content a little bit more. They want to have their content tie in a little bit more seamlessly with their existing brand content. So, Um, some of these shows, you know you can cram in you know calls to action into an ad, but you know, when you have your own show, you have essentially the platform that comes around it. You've got the opportunity to, you know, uh, make those brand connections within the entire show itself, make those long, you know, make those long, Um, uh. You know. So one of the things that one of the advantages of a branded podcast is we get an exceptional at least with the ones that we produce, we get an exceptional long listen length. So you know,...

...you can you can have a thirty second ad or you can have thirty minutes of a connection with a brand per episode and then you know you're building, you know, more brand, brand affinity, Um, so that, you know, they also see the advantage of taking the podcast, breaking it up, using it as additional pieces of content, whether we're putting it on youtube or we're putting it in other channels. So there's just a lot more flexibility and a lot more ownership of the entire system and everything that comes with it. What are what are the typical some of the details? Are they? Are these weekly shows? Are they are they typically there? Are they some of them daily shows? I mean, what do you and how long are the shows and what are some of the specifics. Yeah, and so it just like any good marketer, my my answer is that it depends. Um. So, yeah, so we've done weekly shows, we've done by weekly shows, we've done monthly shows. Now, none of those are wrong and all of them are right. It very much depends on the brand and what's you know, I will say that, Um, if you have a serialized podcast having, you know, a month in between episodes, we do see a dip in audience because, you know, people get busy, they start cleaning out their phones, they start looking for other shows. We get a little bit more, you know, we got what we get a little bit more traction and keep that audience. When we go to a BI weekly and then a weekly, is is ideal. Is Ideal. It's it's a lot more production and it's a lot more hectic from from, you know, from a production standpoint, but that's our job. Um, so it really depends. Now, same thing with the listen length. I mean we've seen success with a forty five minute episode, we've seen success with a thirty minute we've seen success with a ten minute. Again, it kind of depends on what the show is for. Is it meant to be a little snapshot of like tips and tricks and value, or is it meant to be a story that you really want to kind of sit down and and enjoy over a period of time? Um, we've designed shows to be uh, for very busy,...

...you know, chief information officers, and we expect them to listen to it as they're commuting to work. So, you know, we're we're in that kind of forty minute pocket, but it's very specifically meant for for that sort of experience. So again, that's where we come in. Is is determining all those things based on who the audience is, because everything has to come from who the audiences and what we're looking to accomplish. Can you give this a sense about some of the some of the adaptations, some of the show content that some of these different brands have come up with? In other words, uh, you know, if they're uh, well, I don't want to even give an example. Go ahead, just do you have any examples that you can share with us? Yeah, I mean we just we just did a show with t mobile called mobile diaries where, Um, the two hosts have a lot of Um, questions and end and but also knowledge around the idea of sort of of mobile mindfulness. They're curious about how, you know, mobile phones are impacting us on a personal levels, side of level, but also mental health level. So we treat the show as as sort of a curious push into that space, and so we interview, Um, you know, we interviewed people that have had different experiences, whether it's through, you know, online mobile dating, or it's through, you know, the the digital nomad experience of sort of traveling the world and working wherever you you find a seat sort of thing. So, you know, we've taken that as a as sort of like a a sociological experiment that happens to be created by t mobile, which is a nice brand fit, but also I think it's really great to see a brand perhaps look into some of the more questionable or not, I don't want to say dark places, but, like you know, we all have questions about how mobile phones are going to impact us and and and you know, that happens to be a company that specializes in that as well. So I think I think there's a real opportunity for brands to Um, you know, open up the dialogue, to have some...

...tougher conversations through podcasts. You know, we've done shows like Um, I'm trying to think. There's been so many of them. We've done shows. Like me as about the t mobile one, because it's really I really like that example. Do they ever bring up anything that's kind of negative or they always brush the negative aside to be positively more promotional? No, no, they definitely are not afraid to Um, not afraid to dig into some of the you know, some of those some of those spaces. You know, I think there's a really incredible interview that involves mental health and there's a conversation that touches on suicide and and, like you know, they're not afraid to you know, not afraid to Um, to bubble that up to the surface. It's really uh, it's really interesting. So in a certain way the brand has given the podcast the latitude to explore some things that are maybe a little bit more complex or a little bit more, you know, kind of taboo. Yeah, because I think podcast listeners expect that as well. I mean, I'm sorry, I don't think that I know that podcast listeners expect that. You know, there there is an intimate relationship with a podcast listener and they do expect you to, I don't want to say cross lines, but they do expect you to explore some areas that are challenging. I mean, you listen to this American life where you listen to the daily like, some of those episodes are deep or they're tough, tough to listen to, and we're big believers that. I mean, let's be honest, there's a lot of stuff going on in the world right now and and you know, the leadership team a jar believes that one of the things that we're not doing as a society, you know, no matter what country in these days, is we're not listening each other. We're not talking to each other and listening to each other enough. And and so we believe that dialogue can actually, um, go a long way to, you know, improve our relationship, relationships, and I think podcast is just a fantastic dialogue mechanism because, you know, it isn't just a one way conversation with a podcast listener. They do reach out to you, they do have those you know, those those questions and comments and ideas that we we we we always make sure to leave...

...opportunity for that, whether it's an email address that they can reach out or it's our social channels or it's you know, Um, you know, leaving in review on on Apple podcasts or spotify or whatever. So we think that, yeah, you're you're inevitably going to have some of those challenging conversations come up, but I think that's a fantastic thing. Yeah, it's just to me, you know, when I listen to podcasts, one of the reasons that I listened to things that are even even kind of in a different political place to where I am. I try to listen to them with an open mind and learn and kind of get a new idea, a different perspective. I don't always come around, but sometimes I do. And you know, and that's what's cool about this, is exactly it really it's, uh, unlike the news channels. I mean it's not news, I mean it's an opinion and you have to separate news from opinion. But you know, when you get different perspectives, which is something I think that as a society, we've kind of forgotten how to do. Yeah, I mean, we're naturally all in our own bubbles and it's safer when those bubbles you know when the water and when the water in those bubbles is the temperature we like. You know what I mean like it's natural, Um. But you know, the the all the data shows that podcast listeners love to be entertained, they love to learn, Um, and they're willing to invest in great content. And what I mean by invest is, like, you know, these days it's tough to expect somebody to sit down for thirty, forty minutes and give their and give their time to you. So, when we think about podcast versus other mediums, like, you know, radio, for example, radio is a push medium. It's being brought if they called broadcast for a reason. You know, podcasts, Um are poll medium, meaning I want to listen I want to listen to the show right now in this format, and I want to listen to it. I might speed it up, I might slow it down, I might, you know, listen to it one head phone...

...on. I might listen to it while I'm mowing the grass or taking care of my, you know, my older parents, or I'm driving in the car and I just need to escape, like it's it's quite unique. Video is also, you know, it is also an incredible medium, don't get me wrong, but you know, you can't you can't watch a video while you're cutting the grass. You can't watch a video while you're on the treadmill. I mean you could, but you get nauseous, Um, and it's also just, Um, a little less intimate, I think, than an audio podcast. Yeah, it's uh, it's a different thing. So I have a couple of a couple of important questions as a as a podcaster myself. Um, I said earlier that there were two things that were hard about doing podcasts. One is building an audience, and brands have that built in so that that actually is rather easy for them. But what's hard is making the show interesting and creating content and driving guests and the whole thing. How are they keeping it fresh? How are they keeping it thought provoking? Provocate they how are they doing that in a way that, you know, makes the show work over the longer term? Okay, so, I mean there's two areas. One is is you know, you can, you can really lean in on the excuse, you can really lean out on the relationship you have with your audience and ask them what content do they want to hear? What do you want to learn? What experience do you want to have with our show? And I mean let's pretend like you haven't been doing this for four years and you're just starting out. You can. You can do that before nothing has launched, because I mean as an audience member for a ton of things, I love to hear that they have an idea for a podcast, where they're thinking about having a podcast and they want me to be part of the creation process. So ask, just ask. Doesn't mean you have to apply every single piece of feedback and do every single thing that the audience says, but you're gonna pull some nuggets, nuggets out of that. I think the other thing, though, is really lean in, putting yourself in...

...the listeners shoes and constantly be asking yourself like, is this for me and my company, or is this for the listener? And and and I think we all have that little voice in our head that will sometimes tell us that this is not interesting or good or value and all that sort of stuff, and I think just always having that in the back of your mind is going to be it's gonna be helpful. Now, I mean there's there's other things, like you know, you know you you can work with our team and we have very talented journalist. We hired journalists, we don't you know? We don't just hire podcasters. We hired journalists that come from the news world, that come from media world, but also understand what a compelling story looks like and smells like and and and and then we map it out together, like what would we want the listener to learn or hear or experience? And and then typically those things are tied to who those voices could be, you know, and voices could be everything from, uh, you know, a professor at the university who, you know, specializes in that area, or it could be, you know, the you know, the the server at a restaurant who might have an interesting story that would be connected to whatever we're talking about or or whatever. And then there's also like tools that we incorporate into finding those guests and and and kind of broadening our search of what's possible when it comes to potential gaests and potential story ideas. You know, when when a company says I should also started and started to cut you off. But I also think that one of the advantages with podcasts is the data that you're able to see as your as your show is growing and as you're producing your show. So if you try something out let's say, the data will tell you whether it worked or not. You'll be able to see what the listen length of that episode was. You know who, you know? Who? Who? Where those people are from? How long do they listen for?...

You know, depending on the tool you're using, you'll be able to even see, like, was there a drop off at a certain point in an episode, and all that is like incredible information which you can then incorporate into future decision making. So you're not just doing this blindly and just taking stabs of the dark. You're you're, you're, you're you know, you're, you're using that data as Um as little pieces of evidence to continue to build your show. Sorry, I cut you off. No, no, no, it's it's no, it's okay. That's Um I agree with that. I mean that those metrics and that data is incredible. When companies agree, you know what, let's give this a try. Are they typically thinking six months, twelve months? Are they're thinking about five years? What are they thinking about? Yeah, so, I mean part of it comes down to budget, part of it comes down to Um it. You know, sometimes our shows will tie in with a certain brand event within the company. I mean a perfect example is we did uh an Heternal podcast for a credit union that was just meant for their staff. It only went to their staff. Now the show tied in with the their they're sort of brand pillars and because they had just launched a new brand. So I mean that that show is going to have like a little bit of a shelf life and it's maybe gonna be six episodes. So it's maybe gonna be lie you know, it's maybe gonna be rolling out for for three months. Some some companies like like Expedi, like Um Expedia or Amazon or American Express. They want to look at it from a long runway standpoint. So they're looking at it from like a maybe a twelve to twenty four episode season. We're doing bi weekly or weekly. We're rolling out and then, you know, readjust kind of season to season sort of thing. Honestly, a lot of times the clients don't know whether podcast is right for them yet. So from a budget and from like a safety, not not even safety standpoint, but you know, like you know, just like your business owner, you you take chances on certain things, but you also, you know, your butts on the line on...

...those decisions you make. So sometimes clients will say, listen, we're only comfortable doing six episodes. Let's see how it does. So we'll just do six episodes and we'll know that going in and we'll be very clear on sort of the expectations, on audience size, on only six episodes, because it's not going to be massive. But they'll treat it as like a little test run. So it very much, as my as all my answers seem to be, very much depends. Well, yeah, so let's say that a company says, let's give this a try, you know, three months, six month, no matter what it is. Um Number One, it's it's not terribly inexpensive. I mean so there's some there's some overhead attached to it. They've got to get a set up and then they got to run it. But aside from that, aside from that, uh, how do they measure their success? What are companies looking at to say this was a home run? It's not moving the needle? How are they figure that out? Yeah, it's a great question. So, you know, again, it very much depends. It depends what we're looking to or what they're looking to accomplish. So is it they want to see a certain size audience and they want to have a certain amount of engagement without audience. So, you know, let's say they want to see four thousand downloads a month and they want to listen length to be an average of so, meaning, you know, they're mostly listening to all the episode. Um, you know, that could be a measurement for them as as like that's a really great either awareness tool or or a really great piece of branded content for them. Others look at it from the standpoint of what sort of traffic is coming. So not to get into the weeds, but there's ways now for us to be able to track who listened to the podcast and then ended up on the website and and perhaps who made a purchase or who downloaded white paper or who, you know, went on and submitted on the contact page. Like we can now travel...

...and we can now attract that. So from a conversion standpoint, that's a KPI that a lot of our clients. Let me, let me stop you on that, because one of the things we opened open the show with was converting expense into investment. So let's talk about that for a second. When you go on Google and you buy us some adwords or you know you're you have an ad showing up on facebook. Uh, if you don't capture the person's name, that's an expense and that money has gone burned up in the fire. But if you know, if you capture a person. So talk about how that happens in the podcast world and how you convert this expense into an investment that that can generate leads in business for years. Yeah, so the first thing I'll say is that, from a privacy standpoint, we are never able to capture the contact information of any listener unless they um um subscribe to something or submits that information to us. Um. So there is a step that that needs to be taken. But you know, we can do that through a number of things, whether it's running a contest or asking for feedback or, you know, adding a piece of added value. You know, I have a bit of an added value bit. You know, one of our clients at the Royal Bank of Canada does these incredible sort of quarterly white papers on a specific topic. Could Be, uh, you know, aboriginal business owners, or it could be, uh, diversity in the workspace or covid relief. And so sometimes in the episode we will usually the in the midpoint will have a bit of a called actions, saying, like, you know, if you're enjoying today's conversation, visit this website, download this white paper and then we're collecting, you know, we're collecting that information there. Um. So it's it's uh, it's it's it's completely doable. Um. So it's something that it's very much considered in in all the strategy that we that we apply. Do you find that most, most of your companies employ some kind of call to action where they're trying to capture this kind of information? Are People honestly? Honestly, Joel, no, not. Not.

I'd say it's kind of fifty fifty. I mean some of them, some of them see it as an opportunity to capture, some of them see it act as more of just like another piece of branded content that's out there that is feeding into the larger sort of brand affinity question. Um. And then some of okay, and then some of them were very much strategic in like. So, like with Um, American Express, for example, we did a brand lift study, meaning, Um, we did a study to determine of those that uh, listen to the podcast, did they eventually see American Express more favorably? So, that's a good example of kind of like what is the podcast doing for them? And in that case it's brand lift, it's it's helping the brand. Um. In the case of it would say that most of the listeners of our show, who are more medium sized companies, not the fortune five hunter one supports, are accustomed to investing in their brand. Many smaller companies, manufacturers, the middle size, the whole middle world, those companies don't have the luxury of investing endlessly into their brand. So at some point the CEO says, let's just show me the money. I mean, where's the money? You know, how? How are we monetizing, uh, this discussion? So I would imagine, you know, to me the idea of having some kind of call to actions probably a pretty valuable, valuable thing. Yeah, and again, it just it depends, it depends on what that called action is and whether that call to action is overt or uh, a little bit sort of recessed. And I think, you know, great content has shown to Um build audiences and and, you know, increased relationships which then leads to a purchase. You know, we're not always just like any you know, just like other pieces of content. You know, you're not always going to be able to measure every step...

...along the way to an eventual purchase, but I would say podcasts are more high top of funnel, but they can be more bottom funnel if they if they need to be. Yeah, well, listen, you know that I believe in this for sure. So you know, I just I just I want everybody to understand it in a way so that they can believe in it too, because it really it's a powerful mechanism. You know, one of the services, I think I heard you say, you offer is that you find a host, because, you know, if somebody's got to find their own hosts, find their own guests, find their own whatever you put it all the it's it's a big job. I mean it's it's a big deal to put together. You know, you may know twenty people in the first twenty guests are not that hard to get, but guests number twenty one and then you start scrambling around and that's why most podcasts only last a very small number of episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, totally, and I think the host is is the Ondoit into the relationship with the with the podcast for, you know, for a lot of for a lot of listeners. So picking the right host is key. Now, I'll be honest. A lot of times clients will come to us and say we want the host to be our CEO or we want the host to be our director of marketing. Um. You know, we typically try to talk them out of that. And and the reason is not. I mean that the CEO could be very interesting and a great talker, but he's also going to be a little bit, almost too close to the brand and nine times out of ten it's going to turn into an add it hasn't in our experiences. has shown that. Um. So what we do is we try to find a host that is is gonna be is going to be outside of the organization, Um, but isn't kind of out of the blue. I mean there's there's there's got to be a nice sort of brand tie in. So we always start with what the show concept is first, and then who would be the right voice to sort of act as the Serpa for the listener throughout that episode, because that's what that's what a host really does. Is there there? You know,...

...they're the voice of the listener. They're asking the question that that the listener would want to be asking. If they could be in the room with the guest. Um. So it's it's very much important that the host understands how to induct an interview, how to perhaps tug on a few strings in the interview that you feel like you want to learn more from. You know, typically we'll get into an interview and the host and the guest will say something that's like, oh, there's something deeper there, like we gotta I'd love to tug on that a little bit more. Tell me a little bit more about your relationship with your father. You know what I mean? Like there's got to be a little bit more there, and it doesn't mean that we have to use all of it. It's not live, but it's you know, it's pull pull that out of them. Sometimes there's multiple guests and so the host needs to understand how to do a bit of a panel style. Maybe there's some you know, uh, alternative opinions on things. It's important to make sure that both sides are being told and then and then a host also needs to, you know, keep things short, snappy, not drawn too long, not make it too much about themselves. Again, their job is to act on behalf of the listener and ensure that the conversation is going to be fruitful. So we'll sometimes look for professional hosts. You know, there are different services out there where people are available that are, you know, for Higher Um. But then in some cases, you know, we'll reach out to like, you know, like a university professor or somebody who understands the topic and we're pretty confident has a good personality because they see, you know, themselves in front of, you know, students all day and they represent the school and all that sort of stuff. So it's very much Um, it's very much dependent on what the show is and and uh, and then then, and then we just make sure that they're a available and and be they understand, you know, kind of what we need to accomplish, and then we kind of manage that whole process. Yeah, well, listen, part of part of a six USFUL show is being crystal clearing...

...your concept. And you know, our concept is all about the inside track, delivering the inside track, which is the smartest or fastest way to get something done, and you have absolutely delivered the inside track on on how brands are, you know, using the podcast medium in a different way than a lot of other companies are. So how to get away from advertising and really get more into ownership and so you can own those customers instead of renting them, which is kind of way you open the show with. And whenever somebody lives up to the promise of our show and delivers the inside track that, in our book, that person is an advantage player, and rod you are certainly an advantage player and we really appreciate you being on the show and I hope we can count on you to be a friend of the show in the future. I love this conversation. Thanks so much, so well, listen man, thank you for being with us. You've been listening to profit from the inside with Joe Block. For more insights and to learn more, visit Joel Block Dot Com. How about a shout out and a huge thanks to our podcast show producer David Wolfe and the team at Autavita Studios. Profit from the inside wouldn't be possible without these wonderful professionals. To learn more or to find out how you can launch and produce your own podcast show, reach out to www dot auto vita dot com. That's a U D I v I T A DOT COM.

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