179: Blockchain: The Inside Track on Big Changes for Your Business

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Matt Leising

Website: https://www.DeCential.io

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Matthew Leising has been a reporter since 2001, and for 17 years worked for Bloomberg News. He began covering crypto in 2015 as one of the first mainstream journalists to understand what the breakthrough of blockchain technology could mean for finance, culture and industry in general. His expertise lies in the Ethereum blockchain world, where he has immersed himself in stories of the people who invented and then built the world’s most-used blockchain. He published the definitive history of Ethereum in 2020, Out of the Ether. The book has been optioned and is in the process of being made into a documentary series. Out of his book came DeCential, a media company he co-founded in 2021 that’s dedicated to telling the stories of the founders, builders and visionaries who are creating a new decentralized economy and Internet experience.

Matt has written extensively on the intersection of Wall Street and decentralized finance and how new peer-to-peer systems can change the way the current Internet works. He’s one of the foremost experts on the DAO, the early and ill fated defi experiment in Ethereum that was hacked to the tune of $55 million in 2016. This all culminated in his 2020 book Out of the Ether, the Amazing Story of Ethereum and the $55 Million Heist That Almost Destroyed It All.

This is profit from the inside with Joel Block insights to give your business the inside track. And now here's your host, Joel Block. What is decentralization? There is so much talk about the blockchain and the new technologies lately, but how do these technologies apply to my company? How will we decentralize? How will we adopt the blockchain? What do we need to do to get ready for the future? To answer these questions and more, Matt Lycening, Matt, welcome the show. Thanks, Joel. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Happy to have you. And you're a different kind of guest than than many others. You're not a technology expert per se. Right, correct. Okay, so you're a journalist and you catalog what a lot of these experts are doing for business people to understand it better and so forth. So tell us a little bit about your your journey. Like what? What? What are you out there doing? Yeah, sure, I um have been a reporter for about twenty years. I spent seventeen of those years with Bloomberg News in New York City. So, Um, I moved to New York, I didn't have a job, didn't have a place to live, and basically, after about eight months of applying for jobs, I got hired at Bloomberg in two thousand four I didn't know a thing about finance, so it was all learning on the job. I started on the energy team and then slowly made my way into like the trading world and how derivative is exchanges worked and Um futures contracts and stuff like that. That led me into Um learning about over the counter derivatives like swaps, Um, and this is coming right up into the financial crisis when Um the over the counter drive to his market how a huge impact and an effect on making the financial crisis worse in two thousand and eight. So by that point I was sort of like my my beat was called market structure and it was like how do you markets work or don't work? What's going on with the regulation? What's h how are they trying to modernize? And so, after the dust settled in the financial crisis, you know, the swaps market went from being unregulated to regulated through the Dog Frank Act, and I covered that extensively for Bloomberg and u really got a pretty good deep understanding of how these markets worked, who the players were, the you know, exchanges and the banks and the hedge funds and everybody who was you know, who makes this market up. So my journey just continued from there and I started covering the Treasury market like that. I started covering the corporate bond market in a similar fashion. So by I finally wrapped my head around what the block chain was all about,...

...and I had kind of dismissed a bitcoin up to that point. I didn't quite understand it how something that didn't exist or was ones and Zeros could have any value. The underlying blockchain idea, though, really kind of Lit the light bulb over my head, because what it is is a network of computers that's spread around the world and they're all in consensus about the State of the ledger. So if I send a BITCOIN FROM A to B, the ledger records that. It's public. Everyone can see it and there's no middleman involved. Nobody can stop it, no government, no corporation. So I was like, Oh, Wall Street is like a small version of that, because you've got the banks, you've got the asset managers, you've got hedge funds. They're all trading with each other every day. Trillions of dollars worth of securities and derivatives and assets are going back and forth, and if you could apply the same network idea to that, where everyone would still be known to each other. So it's a type of private block chain, but it's still the same concept. It really kind of like just made me think, oh, I need to start covering this because I think it's gonna potentially change how Wall Street works. Let's let's, let's dig into this a little more, just because I want everybody to be crystal clear on what this is. The blockchain and Bitcoin is not the same. Not Correct, Um, not exactly. So the blockchain is what underpins bitcoin. So the blockchain is what makes bitcoin possible and why Bitcoin was the first digital the first cryptocurrency to succeed, because you have to account for the fact that if it's a digital asset, you can forge it and try to pass it off as something that's real when it's just something that you made on your computer. The blockchain aspect makes it impossible, because what it does is it records every single bitcoin transaction that's ever happened in the history of Bitcoin. So if I'm trying to send you some Bitcoin, the network knows where I got that bitcoin them and where it came before that, before that and before that. So it checks every time somebody tries to send bitcoin to someone else to make sure that it's valid. That's like one of the main purposes of, Um, the BITCOIN blockchain. It's it's this is called the double spend problem and it was kind of plagued earlier digital currency projects because if you can't ensure that the Bitcoin I'm trying to send to you as valid, then you know you don't have anything. It's vaporware. But Satoshi Nakamoto, the guy who credit created Bitcoin, came up with the blockchain idea and put together ideas that have been out there, but they were kind of disparate ideas. He brought them all together into the bitcoin white paper and it's been going strong ever since. Two Thousand Nimes. So I so just to be crystal clear. So everybody's clear about this. Uh, the Blockchain, I think of it it's a big database, right. Is that close? Yeah, IT'S A it's a distributed ledger or a distributed database...

...that lives on anyone's computer around the world that wants to, you know, run the software. Okay, so uh, and the bitcoin is one application of this giant database. So we're not talking this show is not really talking so much about cryptocurrency and Bitcoin as it is talking about the database and the applications and the way companies can use this database for a lot of their advanced activities. Yeah, so in Bitcoin's case, that is the only, really the only application it has. Like the Bitcoin blockchain ensures that the Bitcoin, you know, the Bitcoin is is uh, the ledger is always up to date and and it's keeping track of WHO's sending what to wear. Um, there's just quick aside. The ethereum blockchain, which came after Bitcoin, is a much more complex Um blockchain and you can host computer programs on top of it. So that's why you've got new things coming out in this world like non fungible tokens and peer to peer trading and all sorts of things that we probably won't get into, but there are UM. Yeah, so the Ethereum blockchain is really what people are talking about when we talk about business applications here and what I was talking about when I thought that Wall Street could really sort of Um, you know, benefit from this new technology. And is and is that etherium blockchain? Is that the one that's called E R C twenty. That is a type of token that lives on the ethereum blockchain. So if you want to create Joel Coin, you could create an e R C twenty token on top of ethereum called Joel Coin. So that's where you get all these different cryptocurrencies, Um, like Doge coin or Um. You know, there's the list is like there's thousands of them out there. Those all exist within the block, the ETHEREUM blockchain world. Okay, so let's talk about some of the applications for for using bitcoin inside of business. What are some of the great applications that you're seeing? I mean, I've heard that voting is going to be made possible this way. Uh, you know, trading of of of all kinds of you know, currency, commodities, other kinds of things happens this way. Medical records could happen better this way, with better security. What are you seeing out there? I think what's happening on the business side, Um, is people are realizing that, even if they're in a competitive business like say, um shipping or supply management, they're all, you know, basically all those companies are doing the same sort of thing and and if they made a network of of all of their operations. That where competitors could be in this network, Um, but habits so that you know, you're not giving away your business secrets, but you're also Um. If you're in supply chain, you know, like let's say you're a car manufacturer, you've got thousands of different places you're getting your supply eyes from,...

...your parts are being made, you know, and if one of those areas breaks down it can take, you know, days or weeks to figure it out and and you've all at times lost production time. If all of those Um, third party providers were on one network, then as soon as there was an issue, Um, like a breakdown or somebody ran out of rubber or whatever the case, maybe you would now know it immediately and you could try to route around that. So it can bring an immense um gain, an efficiency. Um. You can also, like in the banking system, if if you are trading with your hedge fund clients and your asset manager clients and other banks every day, just as well street does, Um, you are using all these different systems, like bank, you know, Bank of America. It wants to trade securities with citadel, they have to go, you know, through Um. The Stock Exchange and then they go through Um, the depository trust and Clearing Corporation, and other banks are involved and all these things are moving around. Is Why it takes typically two to three days to settle a securities transaction. If, instead, you were on a digital network with all of those people, with Bank of America, Citadel, Goldman, Sachs, JP Morgan, and you are trading directly with them with some kind of cryptocurrency that is the payment leg now you're talking about near instantaneous settlement and so on Wall Street, when you are waiting to settle a trade, you have to set some of your money aside to make sure in case it goes bad. That's money that's tied up and it's capital that can't be used for other purposes. If you took away those two to three days where your your capital is tied up and made it instantaneous, then think about the efficiency of what you can use that money for. You know, all sorts of other business opportunities come up. So I think on the business side, Um, it is. It is really uh. A lot of industries are figuring out that list network idea, as long as you know there's enough protections in there. Where you know, you don't want to give away your your position on two competitors or what you're doing, but there are ways of making sure that that doesn't happen. I think that that's something that a lot of different industries are very interested in right now. Yeah, it's it's very fascinating. So are these applications mostly happening industry wide or company wide? In other words, are companies developing these blockchains for themselves, or are they being used in industries where many players get to take advantage of it? The real benefit comes when it's not company. Why? It's it's industry wide. And so, because you want to Um, you just want to make those connect like the trading or the whatever your business operations are, if you can sort of cut out the middlemen and cut out steps from those processes and make it more efficient, that that's where people are really getting excited about this. Mh.

Yeah, is it Um. One other thing that's that's an important thing to identify, is that let's talk about the privacy of the blockchain. Every single transaction is recorded and available for everyone in the world to see, but they're anonymous. The name of the person is not identified. So could you just talk about levels of privacy, because people are getting very nervous about hey, listen, if everything is recorded, then isn't everybody know my business? Right? Yeah, of course. There are two types of block chains out there right now. There's public blockchains and private blockchains. So public is like B Quin or, like you said, everyone has an address. It's just a string of random characters. Um. So you have no idea who's behind that address unless you do. And some people make their addresses public. Um, some exchanges have public addresses because they need to. So then once you've linked to that sort of string of care, there's to an identity, then you can see everything they've ever done on the blockchain because the record is there and it's public. So of course that's that is a drawback for some people in business. On the other hand, you have the ability to make private networks that, um, are taking the benefits of this sort of peer to peer trading, like company to company transactions. But it's a walled garden. And you so, JP Morgan would know who citadel is, who would know who Goldman Saxes? Who would know who black rock is? And they have to do that because they have to know who they're trading with and who their counterparties are, that there are definitely, you know, very strict rules about your customer rules and all that sort of stuff in finance. So another example would be maybe marisk and Um some other shipping companies are in the same network so that they can coordinate and and make things easier in their day to day operations. But they all know who the different participants are in that network. So you know, it's it's it's really just about kind of cutting out, like some of the stuff that makes transactions take days or weeks and it's really about trying to make them faster. Um, when you're in a private network like that, you don't Um. You're still protecting your companies business. There are ways of encrypting things, Um, they're very complicated ways that we won't get into, to make sure that nobody knows what you're doing. But you're still in this trusted network of your competitors and peers and so on the business side, you know it is taking a while to sort of develop these Um applet you know, these processes, but it is definitely moving along Um. So I think that's that's what's on the privacy side. That's that's a big concern for people, but there are a lot of Um, these are called enterprise blockchains. That are, you know, people are working towards them and they are definitely Um me along. One of the things that people seem to confuse...

...is the difference between the applications, like like a cryptocurrency, and the underlying machinery like, for example, the brokerage companies that the cryptocurrency brokerage companies, the trading companies, coin base and these other big outfits are out there doing this. Um, their machinery is so sophisticated it is mind boggling and it seems to me to be heads and tails better than NASDAC or anything else that we do. There's no personal interaction. The settlements are fast. I mean they are literally training trillions and trillions of units of securities every single day, uh, you know, millions of times more than the stock exchanges do right now, and they seem to do with great efficiency and it seems like it's really working. I mean, what's your assessment of that? Yeah, they also don't, you know, shut down for colock in the afternoon. Um, you know, this is a market. Um. Coin bases never closed UM F T X, you know, all the other big exchanges are. They have a global reach and they are, like I said, Um you know, the stock market opens and closes and it's not open on the weekend. CRYPTO is open like all the time. So it's also on that back drop it's it's pretty interesting too that they're they're doing pretty well. Um. I think that being said, there are still some you know, they they've still sort of followed in the traditional finance Um blueprint. Um, you know, all of the transactions at Coin Base are internal, that those are not recorded on the blockchain because it's too slow for that. So when the trading happens inside a coin base, that's something that's all done by the coin based matching engines and it's uh, you know, it's inside of the coin based kind of world. Um. So that is centralized party and that's one thing that when we're talking about decentralization, a lot of people are trying to get away from that. They don't want to have a single point of failure like an exchange like coin base. Um. You know, we've seen things in the traditional financial markets like a flash CRASH ON THE NEW YORK Stock Exchange or other exchanges going down, you know, and that's happened to coin based as well. So there's still are are these um kind of traditional roles that that some of these companies are playing. And then, on top of that, you know, people have also made a peer to peer Um trading platforms where there is no central party, like like coin base or the New York Stock Exchange, is just me and Hugeole, and where we can just trade directly between each other Um the way that ethereum works, in the way that smart contracts work. You know, you can know that you can. It's you don't have to trust in the counterparty because that transaction either Um is approved or...

...it fails immediately. There's no kind of gray area. So there are all kinds of things that are being enabled by Um, this new technology, I think, are really exciting a lot of people. Um. I know over the years there's been quite a lot of folks leaving traditional finance to go into crypto Um. A lot of other industries are are kind of following in that past Um. So I think it's not going away and I think it's just it's something that people need to grapple with. You know, with every new technology there are winners and there are losers. Uh. You know, the this is exciting and see that it's going to speed things up, it's gonna do things better, but it seems to me like there's a lot of intermediaries and other people that are going to get knocked out of the game that have to be nervous. And I remember the Internet was new, the first thing to go. We're travel agents, because fifty something year old people started wanting to book their travel without having to call some and and go slow and they could look at all the pictures and things, and that was really the first application that I remember. That kind of made people want to buy computers and kind of get going on the Internet and that really kind of stimulated that whole Internet economy in the late nineties. And then the you know, the Job Inter mediaries and head hunters and those people, uh, and they started having problems because monster dot com came on. So when you look at at this whole uh, ecosystem of the blockchain and all the rest, I mean what I'm hearing. I'm hearing escrow companies start to disappear, brokers start to disappear, you know, all kinds of people start to disappear. Who are some of the people that you see going by the wayside and and how are are they fighting to keep this out of our out of our awareness? Yeah, I definitely, you know, that is sort of the whole raison of this Um technology is to reduce Um, centralized functions and middlemen. And so I think an example that a lot of people can understand immediately is the music business, where you've got record companies who, for decades, um relied on, you know, wrote contracts for their artists that usually included, you know, very onerous lending terms so that they could, you know, make a record and then they, the artists, owed, you know, the record company all of that back before they start seeing anything in royalties and that that's just the way it was for decades. And now, with this sort of new peer to peer UM technology, if if an artist has a fan base, they can go directly to the fan base and they can even raise money from their fans by maybe giving access to them Um during the recording or the writing process of what they're doing, or maybe they're gonna turn their master tracks into an N F T and and sell those Um. So now our musicians are...

...making their music the same way they always did. The fans are getting the music the same way and the fans are getting more experiences that then were ever possible before. And there's no record company in that conversation. Um. Another example is, you know, filmmaking is like. I interviewed Um Julie Paccino a few months ago. She's the daughter of Albacino. She's an amazing photographer and filmmaker. She was able to Um sell some of the photos from her like movie, the newest movie she's working on. She sold those as n F T S and was able to raise enough money to entirely self finance her movie. So now there's no studio that's necessary, because the studio is there to lend money so filmmakers, you know, can make their movies. So that's where I think it's getting really interesting and probably really nerve racking for movie studios, music companies. Um, anybody who just kind of sits in the middle and sort of is, you know, the derogatory term, I guess, as a rent seeker, right, and so you can then apply that to all sorts of different industries, like you were mentioning escrow and some of the things that just seem like somebody just figured out that I can insert myself into this process and, you know, maybe exclude like exclude my competitors and just have this fat little slice of the Pie. So if you're that person or I would be a little worried about this. And that being said, I want to just make sure people understand what we're talking about here is not replacing things that already exist. I think it's just an alternative system that people are interested in creating. Um cryptocurrencies and web three is not going to make Um Wall Street disappear, it's not going to make Sony disappear, but it's going to give people an option for a different way of doing things, and so think that a lot of people think that's what and I think a lot of people react negatively to this because they think, oh, they're coming to destroy all these things that I'm used to, and I don't think it's that at all. I think it's just giving a different way of doing things, in a different approach, to people who want to do that. If you don't, you know, nobody's holding a gun to your head and saying you have to buy an n F T. so, you know, I think that's that's that's an important thing to to keep in mind. Well, I don't I don't think that this is about destroying anything. I mean this is this is a better way of doing a lot of things we're used to doing. It reduces a lot of friction. Instead of something taking two or three days with many people in the middle, uh, it might happen instantly with nobody in the middle, right, and that means that transaction costs are reduced. Uh. Most of Wall Street, by the way, is a brokerage function in some way. Their intermediaries. Now they do lend some money of their own, but for the most part they're broke raighting other people's money. All investment banking is brokerage. I mean most of what happens with financial advisors...

...is a broke which function. I mean. So a lot of these people have to figure out how they're going to add more value in a certain way. Although it's not going to make everything go away, it is going to force people to think about how they're going to add more value and do better at whatever it is that they're doing. Yeah, and another thing that's really interesting here for people to think about is Um these systems have embedded within them a monetary value. Like there's a cryptocurrency involved here and all of the things we're talking about. So in the case of etherory Um, it's its own native cryptocurrency called ether. So imagine what the Internet would have been like if digital money had been a part of it from the very beginning and you didn't have to have a bank account that was linked up to it, but there was some sort of native Internet token that you could use and so when you're going to buy something, it's just right there and it's instantaneous. That never happened because I think there was a lot of us back from banks and brokerages and people who the payments industry credit cards, didn't want that to happen. With crypto it happened and it's happening now. So you you get the sufficiency gain Um and then on top of that is this monetary layer to it that is really kind of mind blowing when you start thinking about what the implications of that being, because it's it's everything wrapped up into one. That's why a lot of people are calling this web three. It's the third iteration of the World Wide Web, where web one was really just the Internet and the early bare bones of it. You know, the early email programs, a o l, that kind of thing. Web Two is when big companies came around and apple was there and facebook and Google, Um, but they are all centralized now. Web Three is really about a new internet. It's decentralized, that's got embedded cryptocurrency or digital money payments, um right there with it all, and it's it's Um's it's why a lot of people are getting excited about it, though it's still quite early. Yeah, it's it's early, but but it's timely. I mean we've evolved to this is where the place is. So but's the last thing I want to talk about before we run out of time. On the topic of there are people who would like to see this slowing down because they're concerned that there that their fence around whatever industry it is that they control is kind of breaking down. Um, I think that, you know, Wall Street has an absolute reason to slow this all down. I mean I think the credit card companies are concerned about it, the mortgage companies, the Wall Street banks, all the big companies are very concerned about it. And what's going to really help the Internet the cryptocurrency markets to really take off, in my opinion, is more regulation. There isn't enough regulation around it to really make people feel safe right now. You've got the pump and dump scams, you've got schemes, you've got all these different deals.

I mean even somebody like myself who has been in the Hedge Fund business for years and years. Uh, I don't know if cryptocurrency should follow the rules of commodities like a potato or securities like a stock. I mean, they haven't come out and said this is what it is, and even though they've been a very small number of companies that have gone public and so they're they're out there doing things, the rules are not clear and, you know, there's just all these different problems and I kind of wonder if the SEC is dragging its feet to protect some of the friends on Wall Street that they're trying to let get their ducks in a row. I kind of wonder about that. Yeah, I think, Um, it is definitely true that, uh, there has not been good communication from regulators for the most part. Um, the SEC has been particularly bad here. I think the Commodity Futures Trading Commission has been better. Um, they've been pretty clear that they view bitcoin and the theory Um as commodities, Um and so the SEC, on the other hand, is like a lot of this stuff looks like unregistered securities to us. They've gone after it and they've done a lot of different enforcement actions. So again, this is like old hat on Wall Street. The CFTC and and other regularly in the SEC are often fighting for turf Um and. And what you know? They get to regulate Um. It goes to Congress because they will be different committees like the Agriculture Committee overseas, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission and the Banking Committee oversees the SEC. So you know, there's these turf battles and and nobody in Congress wants to see their agency go away because then they have less power. Um. I think it really needs to come from Congress. I think Um the rules that like Um. On the SEC side, um there's something called the Howie test that's used to determine if something's the security or not. It dates back to the nineties, thirties court case about Um, somebody selling shares in an Orange Grove in Florida. So while it worked for I think, a lot of the twentieth century and and and up till now. I don't see how you can shoehorn Crypto and web three into a nineties era law when what you're talking about here a lot of times is a smart contract, is the arbiter between a buyer and a seller. It's a piece of code Um. You know, a lot of times these things they don't actually physically exist and and there are new models and new ways of trading and of interacting with them that I think need to be addressed, and I think it's really up to Congress to wrap their heads around it and and write some new legislation so that we can start, you know, and that's obviously a very public process where everyone who's has a has a, you know, a stake in this, can get involved and can start, you know, trying to lobby for their own positions, rather than what we've seen too much of, in my opinion, is the SEC coming out...

...with an enforcement action against somebody who now realizes, Oh, I guess we were breaking the rules because we're being sued by the SEC, when there was no prior sort of, you know, um conversation about that with regulators. I think that's kind of putting the cart before the horse. and Um, so I'm really hoping that Congress gets its act together and helps lay down the rules, because people in this country that I know, you know, who are this is their whole lives and this is their whole business, that they want to know what the rules are so they can they can follow them. Listen, that that's what I'm saying. It's uh, you know, if you don't know what the rules are and there's no clarity, then then they determine that you broke the rules. Uh, he's certainly do it on purpose and because the rules aren't clear and the whole thing. So, listen, maybe you're right, maybe congress is is the one that has to kind of decide what's going to happen. Um, the one thing that is crystal clear to me is that thirty years ago, on the Internet came online, American company is we're first in line, we are jumping all over the place. So we got all the great Internet companies. Originally were ours there, and there just were a small number of international companies that, you know, there really were important, big companies that have grown to be large. Um, that's not true in Crypto. In crypto, the United States is just one player among many and other countries are doing a much better job of adopting cryptocurrency, but I believe that the United States of America will adopt cryptocurrency. It won't be a Bitcoin, it will be something else, but we will move to a digital currency not long from now and I think we're gonna get forced into it by our trading partners. So I think it would just be smart of us to get ahead of the curve and and make some rules so we can start playing ball in a smart way. Yeah, I agree, and I think if you think about the way how slow it can take for money to move around the world in different industries or just central banking, you know we're talking again about a huge game and inefficiency, and I think the horses out of the Barn there, you know, and that this is not going away and I think, Um, the government and different industries are, you know, really coming in two grips with that and realizing that they need to evolve along with this. Yeah, well, listen this. Uh, the promise of the show is that delivered the inside track, which is the best, smartest and fastest way to get something done. And Uh, you certainly have delivered on the promise of the show, opening up the door, kind of pulling back the curtain and telling us you know, how this all works. Uh, it is a complicated world. I know that you have produced a book on this whole topic. Do you want to share something about that with us? Yeah, sure, I wrote a book called out of the ether. It's the history of Ethereum, on the blockchain we've been talking about, and the people who created it. Um, starting in about Um. The inventor is a genius named Vitalic Peterin. He created the idea and then...

...gathered around him a bunch of CO founders to make a theory. And you know, from going from theory to to reality. Uh, it's the story of those folks that there was a whole bunch of politics and greed and human you know, interest and Um. You know from the very get go it's a very human story, even though it's about a complicated subject Um, but I really tried to write it through the characters who were involved in the People Um. You know, I was really lucky to get a lot of time with all of the CO founders and metallic shared emails with me from the time and I spoke to his parents, I went to his high school, you know. So I feel like I did my best to humanize this story so that people could um easily approach it, because it can be scary and so hopefully, um, that's what I did and you know, Um, I'd love to offer your listeners, you know, uh off if they want to go to out of the ether dot net and you can get a special edition there. There are only a thousand um copies ever made. So if you Um, if you go there and use the code at to check out an inside track, um off and you can, you can learn more about the history of ethereum and the brilliant, amazing people that brought it to life. Well, listen, man, thank you that that is really, uh, really nice you'd offer offer everybody. Uh, what's the website? Again? It's out of the ether, out of the ether, and that, by the way, we'll be in the show notes. People can see what that is. Use The code inside track and then I'll get off. Uh. You know, whenever somebody lives up to the problems of the show delivering the inside track, uh, you know, we call those people advantaged players, and you certainly are an advantaged player in our book. So thank you very much for for sharing with us and and you know, just kind of putting out there you know what it is you know and what you're doing very fascinating. Is a complicated world, but it's a world that the senior executive audience of our show really needs to kind of Hook into and as much as it might be a little painful to kind of get started, I think it's something that you know, your thing might be, just with the doctor, order to kind of help people get in there in an easy way. So, Matt, thanks very much for being on the show and we look forward to keeping me on board as a front of the show. Yeah, you're welcome, Joel. Thank you as a pleasure. You've been listening to profit from the inside with Joe Block. For more insights and to learn more, is it Joel Block Dot Com. How about a shout out and a huge thanks to our podcast show producer David Wolf and the team at Auto Vita Studios. Profit from the inside wouldn't be possible without these wonderful professionals. To learn more or to find out how you can launch and produce your own podcast show, reach out to www dot auto vita dot com. That's a U D I v I ta Dot Com.

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