185: Digital Economy: The Inside Track on Driving Revenue

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Contact info:

Chris Madden

Email: chris@matchnode.com

Website: https://www.matchnode.com/

Phone: (312) 330-7163

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrismadden1/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Matchnode

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/matchnode/

Bio:

Chris Madden is the Co-Founder of Matchnode, a digital marketing agency that uses strategy and advertising to help established brands that are shifting to digital. He also started Seabums, an NFT project focused on massively improving ocean health. They’ve donated over $144,000 to ocean charities so far. Chris and his team have worked on digital ad campaigns for the Chicago Bulls, Chicago Blackhawks, LendingTree, Indiana University, and New Balance.

This is Profit from the Inside with Joel Block Insights to give your business the inside track. And now here's your host, Joel Block. What are the best ways to drive revenue in the new digital economy? What's the right positioning for us to maximize the efficiency of our messaging while optimizing our head count and our net income? To answer those questions, Chris Madden, Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you Joe so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I'm glad we started with a simple question. You know what, It's a funny thing people always think, you know, hard questions are the ones that come from Harvard. They're not. They tend to be the easy questions, you know, that are really the hardest ones to answer. So, uh so, tell us first, what when you talk about increasing revenue? There are lots of ways increased revenue. You talking about higher more sales people. What are you what are you talking about? Well, in general, match those clients are BBC national, in scale businesses, UH middle market ten million dollars to up to a billion dollars, and so what we're talking about is increasing traffic to our client's websites in a way that leads to transactions. So we don't want to just bring people to your website that aren't going to do anything. We want to bring people to your website in ways that drive a positive r O I uh. And with the changes that are going on in the macro right now, our team is a super efficient extension of our clients marketing teams. So UM Unfortunately there's a lot of turnover. A lot of companies that you know we work with are just generally in the marketplace, and so we become a very flexible extension that can jump in whether during a pandemic or or labor turnover. So you're you're an agency and you supply labor to companies, not not not you know, like rental labor, but you supply solutions for them to improve their ad hazing and so forth.

Yeah, and we supplied value is what we supply, so return on investment. So we're an advertising agency that has creative and technical capabilities in house, and our clients come to us and say please run our Google, Facebook, Instagram and linked in ads. And what we're trying to do is sell tickets to these basketball games or um bring in leads for private events at our restaurant group because uh, you know, the front of our house is doing great and we have tons of business, but we've got this really large room with these really high dollar events that we want to sell, and we can't figure out why we can't get more of those sorts of people in the door. You know, it seems to me that the companies actually come and be that specific and they say, you know, handle our our social media activity because it seems to me like like we're in trouble selling tickets. They really care how you sell the tickets or do they want you to handle that one part and then somebody else is handling some other part. Good question. They generally come to us if it is a case where they're coming to us, they come to us because they know that there are ways to run digital ads to sell more tickets and they're not doing them for whatever reason either. Um, they can't do it with just a single person in house on their team, and they realize that you need different skill sets, both technical, creative and other to do this work. Well. Uh so yea. Oftentimes, like in our positioning to date has been relatively specialized in that we're digital ad agencies. So when people come to us. They usually have attempted digital ads, or they're running them now, or they have an agency they're unhappy with or so, so they're they're not just saying, hey, we're a professional basketball team, we want some more tickets. What should we do? We we don't have any ideas. I mean, these are always professional marketing teams that they're coming to us with data already and saying our return has been three point five, but we know that other team gets at at five and we're having this technical issue where you know, we can't connect our data to the ads properly. Can you help us? So you're you're doing a pretty sophisticated...

...people who really kind of know where the holes are. Yeah, well, when there's a when there's a when if you're a B TWOC company with a hundred million dollars in revenue, you're going to have a you know, at least a five or ten more person marketing team, um, and some of those people are going to be dedicated to the digital realm. They just should be. But again, we're here to help those established brands shift to digital. It's not like there's always if there was a perfect team already in house, they wouldn't need us. So, um, they're they're navigating maybe an established business that isn't digitally native, and they're navigating this marketing budget you know pie chart that they have every year that they're sending a few more ticks each year towards digital and every you know, just look back at the past few years to think of reasons why they might need more digital expertise. Pandemic happens, everyone's like, what do we do? It's all digital now? Um, when uh, there's all sorts of things that happened in the world. Uh, the Facebook and Apple fights, like all these things create moments that change things very These these platforms are very dynamic and have changed very frequently. So for better or worse, if you want to get the best return on your investment, it requires that level of expertise now, you know, make it makes a lot of sense that rather than hiring uh, you know, a team of people internally in an environment that's very turbulent like what you're describing, because the algorithms are changing all the time, that really they have specialized people from the outside who all they do is study the algorithms and understand this is probably not a bad idea, how often do you see these larger, more sophisticated companies making what what you would refer to as a fundamental kind of mistake? And I asked that question because some of the listeners are saying, well, g we're not quite as sophisticated. It would probably give them a great amount of solace to know that some of your people are doing some basic mistakes too, you know, I mean, what are you seeing? Yeah, there's there's there's there are mistakes. And when we see mistakes as an...

...agency, that's why they hire us. We try to go in and correct them. But there are there's a laundry list. Um. Sometimes we run into businesses that are just not data driven enough where they'll look at the numbers, but they don't totally have faith in them, so then they make like a soft decision that isn't fully rooted in the data. Whereas we will be the types to say, like, well, like, what exactly is this piece of data telling us? And if it's not good enough, how can we change the setup so that we get better data? So that that is very common as as simple as like we may be grinding to drive leads for you know, wedding for a wedding venue, for example, at the back of a nice restaurant, and um, we may have to work very hard and spend quite a bit of money to drive and say like five leads in a week, and where we want to see those leads come through as sales. Oh, we booked two weddings, you know, And so when we talk to our clients every week, we want to hear that kind of feedback. There are businesses that just we we end up realizing sadly that's just like haven't been following up on the leads. So we're like, I'm working really hard to drive these leads, and we like feel it very intensely when there isn't a good r o I and why isn't Why isn't it coming out on the other end? Well, like there's something in the middle and between. Sometimes it's a CRM issue. Oftentimes it's just a human issue, like where all humans things happen. So I think that's sort of just very basic miss or ball dropping, uh is coming and it's not to make judgments about it. It just happens. And sometimes people paying very close attention with a high care factor goes a long way. Well you go on that on the concept of dropping the ball. How often have you been to a trade show where you give some of your business card the guys, I'll call you next week, and you never hear from them again. And these companies are spending tens of thousands, if not even hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to be at these shows, and they just let some large percent, I mean half the people I know never hear back from people I meet at trade shows. It's almost like a rare thing it that people follow up. So I agree...

...on that note. Following up is so important. And it's just like you said, the hard things in life are the very simple. It's it's the bar of like, say, if you want to start a digital agency to do something like what we do. If you said a bar to be like, you're gonna be the top ten percent of following up quickly, doing what you say you're gonna do, and uh, you know, communicating clearly like you're gonna do. It's it's so unbelievable how far that gets you, you know, It's really it's it's kind of unfortunate. But you don't have to be that great to be one of the best to be consistent, though, you gotta do it over a long period of time. Yeah. Well, you know what, and there are some people that are just like machines. They just they're just really good at that and that's what they do. Have you ever been involved in any kind of crowdfunding? Yes, we have. We've been involved in a couple of different crowdfunding campaigns over the years, like like kickstarters or or what a couple of kickstarters in our earliest days we were part of a kickstarter and then or recently there was another one we did work with. Yes, yeah, you know. The reason I ask is, uh, a lot of people think that you just put the hook in the water and a bunch of fish, you're gonna swim and take a bite out of your bait, you know. But but that and then they're disappointed. Of course they never found their campaigns. So I kind of, you know, was wondering because I'm a big fan of kickstar. I being from the venture capital business, I love seeing all the ideas people come up with. I buy a whole bunch of these things. Some are better than others, but I just I just I'm almost addicted to it. I just I just love buying these things that just the coolest things come out of it. And what what works, like, like, how do you get a kid one of these campaigns to really take off and and become something. I hate to give the simple answer because we're talking about fundamentals being the hard thing. But what really works is having a great product that the market wants, and that's that's so difficult, you know. So our marketing agency got a lot more successful, you know, through a lot of hard work over time, where my co founder and I were of showing up every day and doing imperfect work...

...and just doing the best we could over and over again, to the point we started getting good clients where their brand is amazing. So selling uh, selling a product of service of an established brand that people know, trust and want made our marketing business, in our marketing programs and campaigns much more effective. It's an obvious point. But going back to your question of how do you make an effective kickstarter, it's like, have an awesome product, and like it's really hard to have an awesome product and a kickstarter. But so so those those kickstars that tend to do well are those that maybe they already have some relationship or specific knowledge of the market that they're going into, or like, you know, hey, I'm a yeah. You know, if somebody comes to you with a great brand or a great product already, you know, can't they say, well, what do we need you for? We're we're already pretty great, you know, because now your job is easy. I mean a certain way. You know, as a customer of somebody like you, I would be thinking, you know, I need you to create want for me. That's what I need you to create is the want. So tell the product in a way that makes people want it. I mean, isn't that the job of the agency? I mean there is many different jobs, but yeah, and there's many Yeah, there's many different agencies that do lots of different things. For instance, we are not a brand agency, so we're not gonna say to you, let's go rebrand your entire business. What we do do because we're an advertising agencies, we can take your brand messaging that your your your value propositions that you've already worked out, and we can run tests to say this one really matters to people, or this one didn't do as well. Because we can create a whole bunch of ads under each of those whether let's say it's convenience or price. You know you're trying to do a little bit of both, and which one really matters depending on the sort of business you have, So we can help, we can really help drive strategic insights from the market in that way. But like, if hey, I've already got a good product, I've already got a good business, what do I need advertising for? It's like, well,...

...at that point, you want to reach as many people as you possibly can. So if you're not spending So if you have a good enough product where you can run one dollar of advertising and get four dollars of revenue and that's profitable for you based on what your other costs are there, then most of our clients are most businesses, assuming they have access to the capital. I want to say, like how much can we spend? We want to spend as much as we can at this efficiency and keep it there. So like that is work that even though your your brand is in a great position to be successful because you have a strong product and a strong business, you still need help reaching as many people as possible and to like hit that efficiency and volume sweet spot. He tell us a little bit about some metrics like what are some rules of thumb, you know, like R O I on advertising campaign? Should it be four to one? Should it be ten to one? You know? What? What just is a rule of thumb? What are some of the metrics that you think about when we start with a client, We generally are looking to baseline at three to one it away, uh, if it's usually for our clients, if it's less than three to one, we're going to be struggling to see them making money on a unit. Just to be clear, it's uh, three times the amount you spend on the campaign. So so if we spend one thousand dollars, generally will say, oh, we saw that it drove three thousand dollars in revenue a few days later. Um. And so for different businesses that works differently. Of course, for pure digital business where they're marginal cost of product trends to zero. Uh, some businesses want a much lower return because they want so much more volume. We worked with New Balance shoes over the years and they have really hard costs in their shoes and you can't spend of the revenue on marketing. So it really depends on the business and what their max allowable or what they're required return is but yeah, three three dollars or three to one. We call it a three return three row as return on spend means a thousand...

...dollars in spend, got your thousand dollars or three thousand dollars in revenue. So that's a good place to start. And then if it's got hard costs, it would be much higher ten to one, you know something, so that you could have, you know whatever cover your costs. Okay, interesting, and and we'll work so like we want to get that get to that three to one as soon as we can. And of course, in the very first or second call we have with a would be client, we're asking them that is three to one go to work? Or what is the number you need to hit? Oftentimes they don't know, you know, which is. It goes back to your earlier question of like what are some basics that people miss? Like they don't even know what they're trying to hit. And sometimes they don't know the unit economics well enough to know. And it's not like they're not smart and having thought of it. It's like sometimes they work in an organization where that information isn't available or isn't there, like bosses true north, so that they don't stin't think or speak in those terms. So, Uh, that goes in the bucket of like fundamental things that sometimes we just bring to the table or we kind of force those discussions because we have to know those things and order to know for if what we're doing is working. You were fine, you were talking earlier. Do you do you ever find that, you know, you're talking about some of these companies being data driven and then they go with a hunch, what about the opposite? You find that some companies are so absolutely focused on their numbers that they lose the side of the big picture. Yes, for sure. Uh. Sometimes we think of that as like the local maximum problem where if you're on say you're climbing a small mountain and you can't see any of the mountains next to you, and you're just like focused on getting up to the top, and then you get up there and you realize, oh, you're just at a hill, and like you really should have gone down that hill and gone somewhere else to get a much better view and to really get done what you need to get done. So there are times where I think that sometimes, uh, we've seen businesses and people in the businesses get us so focused on the detail and the nuance and like the just the mechanics of the execution that they lose really the fact that we like strategically where we've lost track, and like it's...

...our job to bring our clients back at those bumments. And you know, that's a that can be a tricky thing for us because it's also our job to do what our clients tell us to do and ask us to do, you know, so sometimes we're like, we're gonna do this, but this is not what we would do, or we're gonna do this, but we can we tested against this other approach that we recommend and see which one does better. Um. Yeah, So those things come up pretty frequently, you know. I mean I would imagine that, uh, even though these are pretty large and sophisticated clients, that they are looking for your opinion and if they if you see that they're off the track, I imagine they they don't always want the feedback, but they need the feedback. Yes, And it's always about people. You know, one of our core valleys that matched us putting yourself in other people's shoes and always remember if sometimes a client is saying something or requiring a certain approach that we're we keep lightly pushing back and saying, we have to do it this way. When we dig deeper there, and when we say then like schedule a separate meeting to to meet in person or something where we're like, something's going on here and we're not understanding it clearly enough, there is always a reason, or not always, but almost always, there's always a reason that we just didn't see because we're not inside their organization. So there's times where we sense that that there's this disconnect and rather than saying, like God, that's frustrating, or why why won't they just listen to us, you have to like go deeper and think about the fact that someone in their job, for some reason is probably requesting this, and it's our job to understand that landscape so we can both give them what they have to have internally, but also um shine a light on areas of strategic opportunity. Yeah, you know, I appreciate that you brought up the topic of core values. I think this is, uh, you know, one of the one of the trends. I think that's going to be very substantial for and we are getting ready to produce our report. Is that companies that are values driven are the kinds of companies that others like, UM,...

...could you share either your own core values or some of the core values from companies that you've seen that are really good. And let me just preface this by saying, I think that many many of the companies that I've seen out there, because I I am involved with a lot of different companies, are rather disingenuous. It's easy to say the words, it's really hard to make it part of your really your core your culture. UM, you know and live by those values. So what are some really good ones that you've seen that that people really adopt. Our core values are are super clear, and some of this we have a separate conversation about why we run our business this way, but we're part of Entrepreneurs Organization. We run EOS entrepreneurs operating system through the book Traction, and so establishing your core values is just like fundamental in that framework. And so our core values like I mentioned, putting yourself in other shoes, accountability, if long learning, and strategic growth, and I could talk about each of those rather than doing that, I'll talk a little bit about how we put them into practice, because, like you said, just saying what they are is one thing, but like having them be alive is something else. And so, for example, we have a daily huddle four days a week, Monday through Thursday, at the exact same time every day. It's like a four minute meeting for our small ten person team. And on Thursdays the question where the prompt is name someone on the team or a client, someone in the business person who uh demonstrated one of our core values, And so everybody calls out someone else, generally, like I saw Alex help with that client, and she was putting herself in other people's shoes through that. So I guess our teammates always thinking about that and looking for that. I would say, when we have hard decisions to make, we always go to our core values and say that what is this decision about? Is there something in our core values that is being impacted here? And that guides us so a lot more I can say on that, but I'll pause and let unless you fill up with what you think is interesting there.

I mean, I mean, this is a really important discussion, and I think that it doesn't get enough airtime this topic. It really is a really important topic. Companies that live this way. And there are lots of companies, by the way that that people just really really don't like because they don't like their core values. But at least those companies are consistent and then here to their core values. I mean, there's this Chick fil A and hobby lobby. You know, there are a lot of people who don't like them for you know, for the reasons of their values. But at least they're sincere about their values. You've got to be clear about them, not r so you attract the right teammates, attract the right the clients, and and if you're not turning anybody off, then your core values probably aren't specific enough, because like in hiring being one of the biggest reasons, the biggest ways in which we use them. It's like that is our filter. There's a whole interview we do that is just about these core values where we pull out there these questions around each core value and we score it zero, one and two, and we added up up and we have everybody who we've interviewed over the last eight years and charts like, I know, what a good score is on these things. Um, but you're right if if And so it reminds me too of our decision where during the pandemic we used to have an office in Chicago and we went fully distributed during the pandemic, and there are people on our team at the time I think wanted an office again, which was understandable for lots of different reasons. But that's just like wasn't going to be what we're going to do anymore. And so those people left. As we now interview and hire people, we tell them exactly how our business works. We don't have an office. Four times a year, we get together in these really cool trips where we work and hang out and get to get to know each other. And it serves as a filter in the same way that the core values too, and it should. So now our team starts to look like people who want to work at that kind of a business, because if you're not telling people what to expect, whether it's a detail of how you work office or not, or what the core values are, and then you get to a point where you have someone who like seems like a good person and then six months and like this is just not a it Like...

...that is your fault as the business owner or as the manager who's making those hires. Yeah, you know, to me, to me, this is a really important discussion. In fact that it makes me even think that thousands of years ago, Sun Sue, you know, the warrior said that you know that the to the side that knows itself best is gonna win, and we need. What you're talking about is that you really know a lot about who you are, who you're looking for, what kind of clients are likely to be your people, what teammates are likely to be your people? Um curious, though you're a little company, relatively little, you work with bigger companies. Do you think that your little company has had influence on your companies about shaping their values? Are about the importance of values? You know? Can you say that the the little guy has influenced the big one? I? You know, I can't say. I can't say how specifically. I'm trying to think of examples of clients that I would say that there's definitely examples of clients where we have brought like a level of at the strategic growth maybe uh angle, I would say that there's people on our client's teams that have grown because of their work with us. Uh, So that is cool. Uh. In our sales, you know, proposal that we put in front of anybody who's become a client, like that, our core values are the last page, Like we have the price, and then it's the and then it's the core values. And so I think just the fact that we have core values to your previous point of like no one talking about this, I think the fact that we have core values has u probably resonated with people that I don't even know. But I'm like really glad that it's in there, because I believe that the right kind of person who sees that and thinks that that's important will be a better fit for us than someone who doesn't. So I think in ways like that we have influence. Um. You know, we work with NBA and NHL teams, and I know that, um because we've been in meetings with the NBA. We've turned teams or we can turn a team that's like a technological laggered relative to the other teams into a like...

...top performer very quickly, And so we have influence in that kind of way, especially be cause NBA teams, some of them have a lot of the cultural history and employees who've been around for a long time and for good reason. U so, but but it can make change and transition a little challenging. So I think we've been influential in that way, and I hope that, like I hope that just like the people that we are, because of the core values that we have has been part of the reason why companies stick with us and people stick with us. And if someone leaves one of our clients and goes somewhere else, then they hire us because they know what to expect from us because of our core values. And I hope that is slightly influential. I can't say that we've had huge influence on big companies and like turn those giant ships in any direction, but certainly some of the people we work with, I hope that there's been um Certainly we learn a lot from our clients and have had been influenced by them, so I would guess that that there's some that we've influenced as well. I'll bet you've had more influence than you think. Just just talking to you, my senses that you probably have had more than you think, you know. So, so what going forward in time, you know is, is the world of social media advertising marketing, is it gets more complex, more more data driven. What are some of the trends you see coming coming on the horizon? Great question. There are lots of trends that continue to upset the landscape. I mean, first the massive centralization between UH technologically between Facebook, Google, and Apple. Of course there are others like Amazon, but as as far as it relates to like our ad work, the fight between Apple and UH Facebook in particular has been difficult for our business. It's been difficult for our clients businesses, and the businesses that have really been hurt the most are the just just just to recap that, that's where Apple changed to algorithms so that Facebook couldn't get all the data that they used to get off the filce. They called it App Tracking Transparency a t T. Basically, anybody who has iPhone for the...

...past say year and a half has gotten When they first turn on their iPhone, they get the option to opt in or out of abtracting transparency, and everybody opts out because of the way that it's written. And ultimately what happens is UH ads get worse and so you're still gonna see ads. They just don't make as much sense to you as they would have. We can't track it is clearly totally respect privacy and how important that is, and there are lots of answers to that question. But that's centralization, and thanks for clarifying, like, yes, that is the fight that I'm talking about between Apple and Facebook. But those centralizing forces I think are over time going to change. I think that in our agency is very strategic and we are forward thinking. I know you're always thinking about the future, so we are doing things like more than dipping our toes into Web three and two n f t S. So I think staying ahead of trends is key, But trends are more about I think specializing the importance of like the individual customization, personalization and n f t S and Web three fit into all of that. But I think that there's still a lot of space for the Googles and facebooks of course, to um really drive experiences for businesses and individuals that can still fulfill those those those values pieces. I don't believe that you know, running ads obviously, I don't believe that running ads on Google or Facebook means that you're just giving them your money, and you know, you can send the transaction off on your own uh, you know, business and website and there's all the R o I that you need. So I think that it's this balance of playing with these big players, but there's more creators and there's more entrepreneurs that are you know, potentially smaller and smaller over time, that are that are counter balancing that big centralizing effect. And so for us being a super specialized agency, like you're saying at the beginning of this discussion, that definitely plays into that it's really hard to do UM the work we do as like a single...

...person at a company. UM. And it definitely and it's also a in the same kind of decentralized theme. It is a UM not a winner take all sort of business. At my business, matched out is not. It's a expand the pie and there's can be lots of winners sort of business. Let's talk for a minute about Web three n f T s. Uh. You know, we've talked on this show before about n f T s non fungible tokens, which right now are kind of a way of serializing artwork to make sure you have an original copy, you know, if that's what you buy, then that's what you get. But how can how can middle sized companies start to use n f T s. Uh, you know, because they're looking at, you know, some of these things on Instagram that sell for millions of dollars. They're going, this isn't relevant to us. How do we make an n f T relevant to a regular business? I mean, listen to an NBA team, I could, I could see it clearly. But let's say you manufacture widgets, or let's say you you sell widgets to consumers. I mean, how do you make an n f T interesting or relevant to your situation? Great question, and of course it depends on sort of business. Art is easy, and like you're saying, really big brands are easy. But I think big brands like the NBA are easy because because there's a built in community there. Um So, any business that wants to bring its UH, that wants to bring its customers closer and wants to give them give customers another way to engage in a like a very highly engaged way with your brand, n f T s can can help with that. Um So. I think that for things like conferences, for things like events, for things like restaurants, UH, there's a lot of room for one off n f T s to give people almost a receipt of their um of their engagement with you, of being at this event of seeing you speak. We have a e commerce client called look Human dot Calm and they basically give...

...free n f T s as receipts. So your receipt is now an n f T. They've been in business for nine years. We have a nice business that is way way predates n f T s and they decided to go off onto the Polygon network because it's free, and every time you buy a T shirt from them, you get an n f T. And these are like high design T shirts. There's a lot of memes. There's a lot of like funny, jokey sort of T shirts on their website. And so because they have seventy skews and all these designs, so some of these designs are cool and unique, so that business has a natural kind of design or art feel to it. But the point is it's just a free receipt. You can do nothing with it and never use it, or you can go on to Open See and decide to trade it like they're not trading for much, but that's not the point. You can take a bunch of these things, and this company is going to give you a different experience, whether it's a discount free things. So I think there are reasons why they are improved versions of rewards programs to be like a pretty simple answer to your question, Uh, it's like rewards programs with more community and with more longevity. Yeah, We're gonna have to um kind of dig a little deeper on that topic because that's a big one. That's an interesting topic. I think many companies would like to put their toe in the water. They don't know where to start right now. The water is either way too hot or way too cold, and they just don't know what to do. Yeah, and that is something that we are doing a match that is helping companies with those exact questions. Yeah. Well listen, Chris. Uh, the promise of the show is to deliver the inside track, which is the best, smartest and fastest way to get something done. And and you've certainly delivered on the promise of telling us really kind of the inside track about how this whole uh, you know, digital world's working and the advertising components and and a lot of the issues that are really kind of coming up and fascinating that the fundamentals are broken and even some of the biggest companies so and whenever somebody uh delivers on the promise of the show, we call those people advantage players, and that makes you an advantage player. And we appreciate your contribution to our show and hope...

...they'll stay a friend of our show. Thanks. So, I'm honored. I would definitely love to stay friends of the show and listen. We'll We'll put all your contact information in the show notes that anybody wants going to hold of you, it will have any easy time to find out where you are. So thanks very much and we'll look forward to us staying in touch. Thanks you've been listening to Profit from the Inside with Joe Block. For more insights and to learn more, visit joel Block dot com. How about a shout out and a huge thanks to our podcast show producer David Wolf and the team at Autovita Studios. Profit from the Inside wouldn't be possible without these wonderful professionals. To learn more or to find out how you can launch and produce your own podcast show, reach out to www dot auto vita dot com. That's a U D I v I t A dot com,.

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