173: Self-Insurance: The Inside Track on a King-Size Tax Loophole

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Ed Bryan

Strategic Risk Alternatives 831 (b)

(208) 424-2249 (Mobile)

ed@831b.com

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Ed has more than 20 years of sales and operations management experience with a consistent history of leading high-performing sales teams and operational excellence. As Director of Business Development, Ed leads the SRA team in partnering with clients and valued advisors to provide next-level strategies to business owners. He has been a featured speaker at numerous well-known national conventions and industry events in insurance, finance, and long-term planning.

This is profit from the inside with Joel Block insights to give your business the inside track. And now here's your host, Joel Block. How often do you wake up in the middle of the night wondering how are we going to mitigate against the risks that fall outside of our regular general coverage from our property and liability services, risks such as supply chain interruptions, cybersecurity, political risks and more? All of these are bothersome to every one of us and today to answer all those questions. Ed, Brian, and welcome the show. Thanks for having the Oginal I appreciate it. This is a complicated area. It's a very troubling area for a lot of us. I mean the things, these special risks that are kind of they fall into the cracks and most of our regular insurance policies. Um. So you've got some some plan here. What's the secrets for dealing with some of these issues? Sure, no, that's a that's a great question and you know, the truth of the matter is, let's just start with this. Um, insurance policies on the traditional insurance side are getting they're getting larger and larger. Right. They're adding more pages to your traditional insurance the joke is, they're not adding more coverages, right, they're adding more solutions. Right. Um, I think all of this can can really sympathize and empathize with the fact that over the last three years we've really seen the traditional insurance has its limitations. Right, it does a good job covering the types of things that it can. In Traditional Insurance Company, they have the data and the loss ratials due to do a great job with your tangible assets, right, your buildings, your your vehicles, your general liability, those types of things. But the truth of the matter is business owners all over the globe take risks and have risks in their business and traditional insurance either can't or won't cover them, right. And so the truth of the matter is there is an alternative, recent financing tool that's been out there for about forty years. It's been around since the MIN eighties that allows businesses to in essent self insurance, set aside funds for those types of us to fall outside of traditional insurance. Let me, let me stop you right there. Let me, because I don't want to have two big a chunks, because this is corplicated. Right, you know, deal with one thing at a time. Um, every time. I think that an insurance policy includes an exclusion, that seems like an opportunity for an upsell to a writer. So you know every one of these risks, like the cybersecurity risk or special property risk or supply chain risk or you know, political up people, whatever the issues are. Um, aren't those just if their exclusions in one policy? Aren't they potentially just writers that you can abide in another policy? I mean, I mean. So I'm trying to understand why we need what you're doing. Did the other insurance companies even offer those coverages? For sure, that's a good question. And so that the on strength of the matter is twofold one. You may be only get that coverage, but it's so expensive it's cost prohibited. Let me just give you a quick example. Working with a small, demit sized business that was looking for a specific type of coverage, right, and they went out to the market and the best the market could do. They said, for eight dollars in premium, will give you a million dollar policy. Why would you do that, right? I mean, at that point, why wouldn't you self insurance, taking some of the advantages that big businesses are doing? Right? So that's number one. A lot of times it's so expensive you wouldn't do it. And then number two, frankly, a lot of times you cannot get the coverage or if you get it, they're riddled with whole still. So if you if you'll, if you'll permit me, let me share another example. We think about business interruption insurance over the last three years. The truth of the matter is we look at what happened with Covid, a lot of insurance companies say that that wasn't a physical event. Right there. There had to be a trigger in event. Right where insurers we're saying, well, I was shut down, I wasn't able to do business, my business was interrupted. But if you go to look at a lot of traditional insurance policies, they will say that business interruption is only triggered, that policy is only triggered if there's a fire of blood in earthquake, et CETERA. And the argument that still being made in court today is that Covid wasn't a physical event. It was a pandemic and many of those insurance policies had exemptions for pandemics in that...

...so all right. So so you're saying even the writers aren't aren't frequently. That great, and you'd be better off to to self ensure put some money aside for your own protection. And Uh, and and there's a tax deferred way to our at tax incentivized way, maybe even better to make that happen. So explain what that is. Sure. Yeah, and so you hit it on the head. The truth of the matter is, so I've touched on a little bit. Eight thirty one B is a piece of the taxcod we're all familiar with, or a one K. We know what all the case are. It was a piece of the tax code that was put into place in the mid to late seventies and there's taxes set attached to it to set aside funds for future retirement for business owners and for other employees, right. And so it's a way that the government drove behavior. Right. They wanted to be able to drive behaviors, so they offered the tax in center. Our government does a great job in scenting taxpayers one way or the other with tax incentives. So one B is simply a piece of the tax code as well, put into place at eighty six by Reagan, and it was really a wave for it was designed for small to midsize of businesses to set aside money for those liabilities that fell outside of their traditional risk. Not to go down too much of a roundable, but in the in the early to mid eighties, there was a liability crisis in the insurance world. If you think back, or if you were a business owner or an executive in the business, a lot of insurance companies were adding exclusions that were increasing premiums. Doctor World, we're going up and sold. A lot of especially those small to midsized businesses, we're having trouble getting the insurance that they needed right to do business. And so that's when Congress came in and said, Hey, we're gonna put an incentive in place here to set aside money for that rainy day. And the incentive is when you pay premiums or you paid into this eight thirty one B, if you take an advantage of it, then that's a tax deduction er, it's a it's an expense to the business right and those funds are task when they go into this eight thirty long B. It's been around for a long time. Big Business Got Ahold of really early. All the fortune. Five hundred sports and one thousand have been doing this for decades, but much like the poor. Okay, it was big business, right, if you think about the poor OL kid. When I first started, it was only enterprise level companies. Thirty one is kind of followed a similar trajectory. Just in the last ten to fifteen years, and especially in the last three years, business owners and business managers trying to say, Holy Job, I've got risk to fall outside of my traditional insurance. I've got to find a way to set money aside for those rainy days. So what? What science companies is this suitable for? I mean what what's kind of like not suitable? Where does it start to make sense? Sure so, you know, I would tell you. You know, it's a it's a fluent situation, based on the state a lot of times or where where the business is. But I will tell you that ore we have clients that are gross, seeing that owned businesses, that grows two to three million, and then we have plants that are gros seeing, you know, five, six D million in revenue. Right. So I realized that's a huge delta. Our average companies probably grow somewhere between five and twenty million in revenue. Right. Um, usually they're privately held. Um, you know, closely held family businesses, generational businesses. But if you take a look, I would say this, if you're grossing two million plus Um, you probably should at least understand what a need. Thirty one B is, okay, and and how much money are different science companies putting into these deals? Yeah. So, so the task for itself when it was put into place in in eighties six. You can set aside up to one point two million on an annual basis into into an eight. Very well b the Path factor changed that. They put an inflation writer in there. They moved into two point two. As we stand in today, the lovely word inflation, right, that we're all talking about nonstop. You're able to set aside about two point four million on an annual basis. You do an eight, thirty one B. Now we have an internal control mechanism. We're very conservative when we when we do these things, when we set these things up, we usually like to say no more than ten percent of gross revenue on an annual basis could go into an eight. Very long be okay. So let's let's talk about what the mechanics of this is, because I've heard, I've heard of the UH these these self insurance deals and and sizeable, substantial companies are doing this. So...

I know this is a real deal. I mean I know this is not, you know, some kind of a scam of so I recognized that this is a real thing and I am from there with the part of the tax code that deals in the insurance company to the eight hundred series. So that's kind of where we are. That's what we're dealing with. What as far as the these things, a lot of them are being done like offshore. So the question that I have is, if this is a domestic tax law and it's encourages companies to mitigate their own risks so that they're not fully dependent on insurance companies, why are these things being done offshore or or or an outside of the jurisdiction of the United States? Yeah, so, so, originally, when these things started, the reason why, a lot of these things found a home off shore, specifically in the Caribbean, right Jamaicup for you to the Caymans, etcetera, and there's still a very, very big industry there right with these and the big reason was there were some favorable tox treatments for moving those funds off shore. Right at this any time, if you were procuring insurance that you couldn't get on the open market. A lot of times those business owners said, Hey, I don't want the State Department of Insurance to regulate my insurance purchasing for risks that I can't get in my state regardless. Right. So they decided to go offshore, said those funds overseas and be able to procure insurances that they couldn't get in their states and they said we don't want the state insurance departments to regulate that. And so that's really initially why it went that way. Um, as the industry has matured, Um, you'll see big business, the Portune five, they still all go offshore. But there are some challenges, especially in that small to middle market space, with red domesticating funds, filing additional disclosures with the I R S, right, and then, Um, some of the requirements of those entities or those those those, uh, those countries, Um, that say hey, you know, you're gonna have to leave twenty percent of your free rooms here at any one time. And so it ties up cash. Right. So there's a benefit, because it's a cost. It's a cost benefit. The costs are lower than doing it domestically and there are other benefits, but at the same time it comes with it's all the side of complications, for sure. All right. So, just thinking about the mechanics of this. So a company is gonna set up a separate entity, they're gonna put it in a you know, in whatever tough place you tell them to put it, and my understanding is you guys don't use the offshore. You have a different mechanism, which we can get to in a minute. But they set up a set up an entity and they funded. So basically, let's say they're putting in a million dollars a year into this thing and over a handful of years they've got five or ten million dollars in a bank account. In case of an emergency, of a cyber security risk or some kind of blowout of some kind. Uh, does that money just sit there waiting for them to access for an emergency? Or what happens to the dollars that are sitting there? Yeah, good questions. So so wow. So think about it in the principles of insurance, right. So, so these policies are one year policies, right. So when let's say you put a million a year in right, so that million dollars chose. In he goes, they do an account in the name of that eight thirty one. Right, the business owner, whoever the business owners guys, dains signer on account. Those funds can be managed, right, so they can be put to work. Think what a traditional insurance company will do. They're going to with that risk premium is going to invest in things like stocks and bonds and mutual funds, fairly conservative types of investments. What they're not going to do is go out on my crypto, right, they're not gonna go on back Bitcoin with that, because those funds are at risk of claims. But the money absolutely can be managed and much like a traditional insurance company, at the end of each policy year, minus city claims, whatever's leftovers is surplus or underwriting problems. Right, that eight at that. Wait, wait, wait, you so the entity that you set up and put in the foreign location actually is an insurance company? Absolutely, you actually create an insurance company and my guess is that's what your company does, is you do the whole mechanism of setting up this little insurance company that a company actually owns and and then it funds. So those dollars are always sitting there for the company to be able to access. Absolutely and so let's touch on that real quick. So I'm assuming most of your listeners are familiar with the poll one K. Right, we've...

...touched on that a little bit. But but if you have a whole in the third party administrator and if they're familiar with how those operate, when you're when they when they look at the poll one, Kay. We do the same thing with the thirty one weeks. So you're absolutely right, right, and those funds do sit there, right, but once again, once those policies expired, those funds are no longer at risk of claims. And any insurance company lives for surplus, right, they want those funds outs. Why? When we look at at stadiums and big buildings all over the world, those those sports stadiums, those arenas, etcetera, they have names and insurance companies on them because they love that surplus. Right. So the benefit is here to the business owner, especially the small inman sens business owner. We've flipped the script right. Say, okay, instead of just paying bringings to a third party that you're never going to get back, why not enjoy some of the underwriting profits, that that of risk that you can't get coverage boil on the open market, right, and then at that point, to your point, you can access those funds, you can loan the funds back to yourself, you can dive it in against the etcetera. So this is starting to become clear. So you put the so you set up an insure earance company, you pay premiums to your own insurance company at the end of the term if you don't use the insurance uh that you bought, basically bought by putting it in. So when you when you move the million dollars into the insurance company, you're effectively in air quotes by the policy absolute of insurance, because that's what insurance companies sells policies. If, if it expires a year from now, then that money becomes available to to the Insurance Company to distribute as profits or whatever it wants to to to the owners. And the owner of the Insurance Company is the company that's set it up. Yes, basically. So I think what you're saying is it rather than pay money to a third party insurance company that's going to keep your surplus, pay it to yourself and you someday may get that surplus back if it doesn't get spent on claims. Absolutely, and and yeah, so that thing, right, is that we always talk about this. Once that funds, those ones, get to curplus, then that's one of the business construct and leverage that asset. Right, I'll be a loans or they decided to declare timid in right, so instead of you know, having to go out me to learn from a bank, say we're gonna take long from our insurance. But, by the way, this is what Walmart, Google, apple, Nike, all of them do. They loan themselves funds out of their insurance companies to go out and grow or buyout a competitor or whatever the case may be. That's where that financial stability and strength comes from from leveraging tools like this. Yeah, this, this is a problem. I'm catching onto it now. It's it's it's taken a minute here, but I'm starting to catch on. I hope the listeners are catching on, because this is kind of a tricky deal. But, uh, the money goes into the Insurance Company that Your Company owns and then you're basically paying premiums to yourself and then over years, the money accumulates into a pretty substantial sums and and that can eventually, you know, be clawed back in some way as dividends or some other payout mechanism. So the government really has set up a mechanism for companies uh to uh, to basically pay themselves and self insurre and give them additional protection so that they're not dependent on insurance companies that only provide half the policy. Exactly. You got okay, got it. So what's the what's the ratio like? UH, like, how much can a company expect to save if they put a million bucks into a policy of their own coverage and they didn't have any claims, which most of the time you don't? UH, number one, you know, what's the ratio of money that comes back to the company? And then, secondly, who, who does the calculations about how much money should go in and how much, how much risk they're actually taking? Right so, so a great question. That's actually what we do, right as the third part of the administrator. Right. So we calculate all of that. We work with them, we underwrite them, we'll take a look at their risk. We're gonna work with their trusted advisers whether it's their C P A, maybe their CFO. They're controller of the business owners themselves and we're gonna take a look at their risk profile. Right. We've been doing this for twelve years. We've we've done a lot of these things, suffice it to say, and the truth of the matter is is we're going to take a look at that and help them identify some of those risks they may not even be aware of. And just in real round numbers for you, I would say if...

...a business doesn't have a claim of its own, on an annual basis or in a giving year, they could expect back someone between eighty five cents on the dollar of the premiums that they put in. So if you put a million dollars in, you're gonna get back someone probably between eight hundred and fifty and fifty thousand dollars back, right on an annual basis. So you can start to see the savings potential and the goal with this is on on the good years. We always talk about this from a risk mitigation standod. Let's park on the side right, let's let's take some off the top, let's take and put it into a tax advantage vehicle and then if we have an event that threatens the cash flow or we have a bad year, we have those funds that could bring and pull back into the business. Instead of cash flows going up and down like this. The goal would be the level of them out, if that makes sense. Our company has ever tempted to buy regular insurance or mitigating regular insurance risks and not just those extraordinary ones that you start out to the why? Why do you have to differentiate between general risks and specially a risk? No, that's that's a great question and and absolutely the answer is yes. And so we have vehicles as well for larger sized entities that can take on their traditional risks. So you start to look at general liability, workers compensation insurance, Commercial Auto Um, excess risk of rela policies, those types of things, you absolutely can, and that's what big business has been doing for a long time. They are financing those types of insurances through these types of mechanisms right. So we can do both. Most of our clients. This is the thing that we always put on, especially the small moment sized businesses, when we're talking right from a risk consulting standpoint, is take a look at what you're paying your creatives and then look at your coverages and then ask yourself if you look at your claims ratios as well. If you're a well run mid sized business that has low claims ratios on, say, your workers camp and your general liability, you may want to look at self ensuring those. However, for example, if you've got a bunch of vehicles on the road and you have a lot of claims, you may not want to take that risk on yourself. So you're absolutely right. You can't start to move some of those traditional risks into a vehicle like this. The question is, and what we always say, were the members. Do you want to it isn't a smart risk calculation is it is a smart risk for a business to take. You know, one thing that I'm sitting there, a thing I'm thinking like hurts. Hurts. There's a sticker inside the car self insured policy number so and so and and they probably are doing this exact same thing on offshore account. They've got their own company and they're paying money to themselves. If they don't, you know, pay out and claims and they pull the money back and they save money. Basically save money. The difference between hurts big companies and you know, you know whatever little companies like, uh, you know, companies that are privately held and you know, I don't know, even up to a billion dollars. I mean those, those kind of companies, they don't tend to have the same kind of discipline that large companies have that are always professionally managed. So my question is, if you have to pay ten grand a month or whatever the premium number is, oh we don't have the money this month, will just skip this month if you're not paying to a third party and your risk of cancel if you find the companies just don't behave themselves and do what they're supposed to do. Um, you know. Here, what I would say is, by and large, the types of business owners and the type of businesses that we've been engaged with over the last twelve years, we don't see that happen. I mean we've seen to happen. Are Great once in a while, but the truth of the matter is that these are sophisticated business owners, their entrepreneurs, their risk takers. What we always say is let's let's err out the side of caution. Right to your point, everybody wants to say we're gonna put away as much as we can. Well, let's find a realistic number, because what we don't want to do is exactly what you just suggested. We don't want to hamstring the casual of the business, right, and so that's why, as a third party, they are paying that to us initially, right, and so we are the gatekeeper to keep this thing compliant. We're just we're gonna operate just like a traditional third party administrator. You don't pay your free mums, guess well, you're gonna get a phone call, you're gonna get an email. We're gonna talk about those things. Right. I can think of on one hand maybe the total amount of times in the last twelve years we've had issues. So very rarely doesn't happen because they...

...start to realize the power of the tool and they realize the all of the benefits to themselves down road, and so you'll find that a lot of business owners. We have to kind of pull the reins back and say hold on, right. You know, we've got internal control mechanisms, the numbers that are in placed with tax codes. So we want to make sure we keep them ampliing there. But it's it's usually the other way right. They want to pay too much, like we have to slow you down, keep you compliant, to make sure we're doing this right. So we started out by talking about these extraordinary risks and I imagine that we talked about extraordinary risks because that's what keeps the premiums, the amount that gets transferred to the insurance company, as low as possible. Uh, and as we start getting into more general risk the numbers start getting bigger. So do you find that companies start small and as they kind of catch onto how this works, they're pouring more money in over time? Absolutely yes, and that's it's funny you bring that up, because the truth of the matter is a lot of businesses will they'll get the toe right for year one or year two and then they start to realize, to your point, the power and self insuring, especially if they're well run right, if they have good loss ratios, good safety programs in place, they run a good business, all of a sudden it's like, well, what about this? What about that? And they start to look at all of the risks and that light bulb goes off and they say, holycount, why wouldn't we be doing this? You know, maybe I paid two million dollars in premiums over the last five years to a third party insurance company and I've had a one thirty thousand dollar claim. WHO's winning right at that point? Right, why wouldn't you at least take a layer of that risk and put it into your own a thirty one and say hey, we're gonna bet on ourselves because we want some of that reward on the back end. And I'm betting as a business owner of business manager, we're gonna win more often than not and if we have a bad year, we have that Rainy Day Fund set aside to go fight that fight. Do do companies combine their insurance companies, or is it one to one? One Company went in your one insurance say yeah, what? What? What? What a thirty one be per unless, I guess I would say think about think about auto deepers. So auto dealers are kind of the keys of this type of risk financing mechanism. You kind of hit it on the head when you talked about parts, but if you go to any autode and they sell you a service agreement or an extended warranty, you know any of those types of things. Will Guess what they've got? Eight thirty one vs on the side and they're segmenting their risk out right. So maybe they've got boards in one insurance company, they've got Chevy's and another BMW's and another Um service agreements in another. So they will end up with three or four or five or how many ever the business legitimately needs. And so, depending on the types of risks and the voluble risk, businesses can sometimes end up with multiple insurance companies. And you could, you can totally understand that because, uh, number one, the you know, liability. You have a limited liability, you know. I mean you have a potentially big problem, but you know, like a warranty. How what? What? The biggest thing could be an engine for five grand or something. Just it's a limited number. You put your arms around and that hardly ever happens. And these end up being very profitable policies for these companies. So they can even add more juice to their profit by by setting these things up independently and not running them to a third party. Is what I'm here yeah, no, and think about it. I mean to be honest with you, if you go to try to buy furniture or you go to best buyer Amazon, you try to buy something, what POPs up? You want to protection plan, you want to send a work you want to know why, because we all know. Right. The truth of the matter is they can. They can task the for a percentage of those profits, right, and not pick tacks on them. Sentiment in that vehicle. They know what their claims ratios are, right. They know that we're gonna put significantly more into this thing than our claims are ever going to be. It becomes are very profitable vehicle. You're exactly right. That's what auto dealers too, and if you look around, it's all around us. It's just now we're bringing into small to middle market. So these eighty one deals are really uh, they're pretty pervasive. We just did would never do what they were exactly exactly, one of the best kept secrets this uh yeah, this is a good episode. I'm glad that you're sharing that with us. So what's it cost to set one of these deals up? Sure, so you know. I'll tell you what we charge and I'll tell you what it used to be. Right. So we charge five thousand dollars to set one of these things up, and then it's five thousand dollars each year and thereafter as we had been to feed. Right. So so it's it's pretty you know, there's that's a cost to it, absolutely, but if we were to talk ten to fifteen years it would have been twenty five thousand or fifty...

...or maybe even a hundred, right. So much like the goal. Okay, they were very expensive to set up initially or UH, and so we've kind of come down and lost ten to fifteen years. We had kind of we have, and so that's the theme. And then, depending on premiums, you know, we'll retain our percentage of the premium uni where between three and ten percent, based off premium volumes, and so you know there's a cost associated with it um but it's one of those things where, like I said, ten or fifteen years ago it would have been significantly more expensive to do it, and that's why small to mid size of business is really how it looked at this. You know, if you weren't grossing fifty million, a hundred million ten to fifteen years ago, we sat down in the room and said Hey, it's gonna cost a quarter million dollars to set up, you might have thought I was crazy. Right. So, much like before, one K has come down and cost eight thirty one B cost have come down as well. So is it possible for companies to, let's say, bifurcate their property and their liability and say we want to buy liability insurance because that could be unlimited, but we'll U we'll we'll self ensure the property risks, in other words, of absolutely building burns down, we'll take the risk of that. But if, but if somebody falls and hurts himself badly, we want to, you know, we want to buy traditional insurance for that. that. The companies do that all the all day long. Yeah, they'll take the yeah, they'll take the risk that they know they have good lost ratios in and they'll say, hey, we're gonna self ensure that because we're gonna better ourselves there. And then, for example, you know, you get a commercial auto policy and let's say you've got fifty trucks on the road and you know you have you know you have claims and your risk there is higher. Let's push that off onto a third party insurance company. Let's let them take that risk for the premium, but we'll self insure the risks that we know we're gonna win on. So so how are companies thinking about this. Is it controllable risks? The risk that I control, I'll self insure. The risks I can't control, I'll push away. Is that kind of how they think about it? Sometimes, sometimes I mean. Or the other thing is that it can I not? If I can't get coverage on the open market, well then I'd better sets on aside for a rainy date. Right. So some of those things that, like Covid, we go back to that. Hate to beat that horse, that dead horse. Put the truth of the matter is this is right. With Covid, all of a sudden, business fount, Hey, we're on essentially right. We've heard that term. Right, I got shut down. Right. Well, that's something that's out of my control. I under set a sign of money for a third party business interruption or a contingent business interruption or political risk, things that are outside of my control, then absolutely right. But on the traditional insurance side, you're right. You know, if it's one of those things where it's general liability or it's an access risk or a property to your point by building the burns out, I'll take that risk and they're the in fact, I talked to a business owner just in the last week that said, Hey, I'll take the risk of my building burning down, but I'm worried about my audible. So he left his audible the traditional internance career, putting his property into into an eight thirty world week. Yeah, thinks it makes a great amount of sense. What are some of the industries you've seen do this successfully? So what you'll see is you can apply thirty one B to any industry, but but where we're seeing in the most growth is construction. Anybody that's in the construction space, transportation, medical, Um, you know what are the what are these guys putting into the eighty one vs what? What? What part of the risk? So you're seeing general liability. That seems to be a big one, or property is a big one, and then and then all of those other unfunded liabilities that we talked about, political risk, supply chain interruption. If you're a manufacturer, Um, you know everyone's dealing with supply chain issues right now right so you know set aside money for those risks. You know, for example, let's say you can't get steal from wherever you get it, you have to go to another country and get it and you have to pay a Praymi and well, all of a sudden, that's it ensurable risk, right. So, so, supply chains a big one. Uh, let's see. Brand protection is another one. Right, in this day and age, with with how everyone wants to go online and write bad reviews about businesses, even if the business does nothing wrong, and you've got to go hire people pr firm and go fight that fight for you. That's another one. Dispute Resolution, right, we live in a litigious society. If you're a business owner, statistically speaking, you're going to be sued at least once every seven years. That's usually the minimum, right, Um, so set aside money through that Rady Day, because a lot of times your traditional insurance isn't gonna cover that. So those are the...

...types of things we see them in addition to their general liability, commercial auto depending. You know, we'll look at the risk profile and say, Hey, these are the things that you should at least consider looking at selfing self insuring through any very will be. I'm impressed by you, man. You, uh, you really have explained something that is rather complicated in a really good way and I appreciate you doing that. And you know it's uh, it's the it's the promise of the show to deliver the inside track, the best, smartest and fastest way to get something done. This the whole concept of self insurance. Uh, it's IT'S A it's a little known concept that probably needs to be better known and when you think about how much it's all around us anyway, you have lived up to the promise of the show and when somebody lives up to the promise we call those people advantaged players, and that makes you an advantage player. So thank you very much for sharing with us and, you know, providing our providing our listeners with all the background that that you provided them and your Infrolob of the show notes, so people can reach out to you if they'd like to. Thanks. It's been great. I appreciate it. Awesome you've been listening to profit from the inside with Joe Block. For more insights and to learn more, visit Joel Block Dot Com. How about a shout out and a huge thanks to our podcast show producer David Wolf and the team at Auto Vita Studios. Profit from the inside wouldn't be possible without these wonderful professionals. To learn more or to find out how you can launch and produce your own podcast show. Reach out to www dot auto vita dot com. That's a U D I v I T A DOT COM.

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